The Greens today are calling on the Coalition government to step away from plans they are developing with the Shooters Party to put guns in schools. Guns in schools are the first part of the Shooters’ party’s plan to use their sway over Barry O’Farrell to deliver a pro-gun culture here in NSW.
As reported in the Sun Herald, page 1/7, 19 July 2011 (Article 1 | Article 2)
Greens NSW MP and firearms spokesperson David Shoebridge said:
“Guns in schools are part of a growing push by the Shooters Party to normalise gun ownership here in NSW.
“The Shooters’ long term plan is to re-make NSW in the shape of the US where gun ownership is an first order right and not a privilege.
“It is very troubling to see the Coalition caving in to the Shooters’ agenda and supporting them in getting more guns in our schools.
“Few parents in this State want their children going to school and having a morning lesson plan that runs from maths, to geography straight through to weapons training.
“The Shooters have legislation in the upper house, where the Coalition often relies on their votes, to give children ready access to high powered air rifles, that lets guns in National Parks and further weakens our gun control laws.”
“It’s time for Barry O’Farrell to say a loud ‘no’ to the Shooters and their radical agenda.
“Australia took historic steps to reduce the number of guns in circulation when national gun reform was passed in 1996.
“Unless the Coalition grows some backbone and stands up to the Shooters’ demands many of those advances will be lost,” David Shoebridge said.
NO! NO! NO TO GUNS IN OUR SCHOOLS! NO TO SHOOTING AS A ‘LESSON’ ! WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? WHOSE INTERESTS ARE YOU SERVING?
A word of wisdom from someone south of the border.
The best time to teach people anything is when they are young. Their brain holds onto the information far easier than when they are old. Same goes for arms training. The best time to familiarize someone with firearm is when they are young. The proper handling of such things then becomes second nature.
The time you get problems is when someone has been isolated from firearms all their life, and then at the ripe old age of 40 Someone hands them a gun. That is when they usually do something stupid, because don’t know any better. Even when you tell them what not to do, they still make mistakes because they can’t internalize what you are telling them.
When you grow up around them all your life, then proper firearms handling and etiquette become second nature. Even if you have never been to an official firearms training course.
When you grow up around them, then firearms no longer have any special meaning. They are just another tool. People that usually obsess about them and the wow factor of owning one are the people that never had access to one until they was older.
Allowing wide access to them defuses the clout and authority that people perceive they get when they own one. It basically takes away the stigma and ignorance.
Basically, If you want responsible gun owners, teach them early. If you want to stigmatize ownership in order to push a gun ban agenda, then forbid people from having access to firearms until they are old. Because that will guaranty that when they do get old enough to use one, they will be to ignorant about them to use them safely and you will be able to use the resulting mayhem to push a gun ban agenda.
I’ve got news for you. A number of elite private schools in Sydney as well as regional NSW have been competing in the sport of rifle shooting since 1892.
The girls schools compete on an equal footing. They learn discipline and safety. In fact the sport is much safer than any contact sport, and it is included in the Duke Of Edinburgh Award.
These students go on to represent our country in the Commonwealth & Olympic Games.On a club level there are Seniors well into their 90’s that continue to compete successfully. It is an expensive sport but why restrict it to only a few well off?
“Few parents in this State want their children going to school and having a morning lesson plan that runs from maths, to geography straight through to weapons training.”
What I find really interesting is that you have never been out to see one of these programs already running in schools and shooting clubs catering to kids. So, you can only imagine what’s going on, and have formed an opinion based on that belief, in that “kids with guns” is bad, mmkay?
Whilst we are teaching kids to handle firearms responsibly, we are also teaching them respect and reward in a highly structured, safe, and disciplined environment. As a parent, I would love it if my school offered shooting to my kids, as it’s a far safer activity than football, soccer, rugby (where one kid died recently), netball, hockey etc.
Show me one statistic where kids are wildly shooting themselves during an organised school shooting event, and I just might believe that there’s an element of danger. But I bet you can’t do that, because I’ve never heard of it happening.
Yet, kids have died as a result of rugby accidents (and not just the lad recently either), swimming deaths, and many kids have been seriously injured as a result of other sports activities.
On a Saturday, I go to my local club, and see kids with their entire families attending the range, and learning the necessary skills and knowledge to handle a firearm safely and with respect. They’re buzzing with the excitement of being given responsibility, and having their mum or dad nearby doing the same, comparing scores, and having great fun in the outdoors, connecting with each other, bonding as a family unit.
They’re not at risk, and they’re no risk to anyone else.
Lets just say that, at the end of the day, I would much rather be around these kids any day, than have anything to do with the dropkicks and yobbos of society who have no respect for themselves or anyone else. I would much rather see my kids having fun and interacting with each other, their fellow shooters, the range officers, and the adult shooters, than sit in front of the Xbox.
Several schools already have shooting as a sport, what is wrong with having more schools to run the same program as others .Why do you favour discrimination against those who do not already go to a school without the option to do shooting as their sport.
You will also be pleased to know there will be no guns in schools as no guns will be taken from the shooting range.
Children can not own a gun or even hold one without licensed supervision. Guns will only be at the range under licensed supervision, as happens at several school in NSW at the moment.
Educating children about guns is the best way to protect them. A few years ago a child was killed when staying at a friends who’s father was a criminal with an illegal gun. The kids found it and played with it, as they received all their firearm education from video games and one was killed. If one of them had any education of guns that would not have happened.
Excuse me? A push to normalise guns? What are you smoking?
Guns ARE a normal part of a good many peoples lives. Despite the attempts of some do gooders to paint a different picture in the media, those normal people lead normal lives without any of the dire consequences you predict.
I’m sorry, but the radical agenda is the greens attempts at social engineering.
I reckon this is a bloody good idea. I was given an opportunity to learn to shoot when I was in high school and it taught me responsibility and respect.
Looking back on it, before that little prick howard demonised gun owners for his own political gain, the world seemed a far less troubled place.
Having a right to do something does not make it compulsory. Target shooting is no different than archery of which both are olympic sports. Giving schools the option of Target shooting as a school sport is just that, an option which I am sure principals are capable of dealing with in a responsible manner. David there won’t actually be any guns in or at schools.
NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!! guns are NOT NORMAL. guns are designed for one thing only – to kill.
what herbs are you on – Chris, DHV, Henry and Jason – to think it is ok to ‘normalise’ the use of guns amongst school age children? your attempts to justify this are ridiculous and dangerous.
I don’t know where you live, but guns are normal everywhere in Australia I have been. Every policeman I see has one, as do almost all farmers. Anyone interested in eating free range healthy meat has one, as well as most people who want to do something about the feral animals destroying our unique native species, and all sporting shooters have at least one.
Consider your words next time you watch Foxtel or use your satnav/GPS as rockets were designed for one thing as well and that was to destroy.
Firearms are used commonly for target shooting, which is as far away from killing as you can get. This is what is being put forth as an option for public schools. This is a safe sport and is also very rewarding and does a lot to instil responsibility in a child, just as any other sport.
“Few parents in this State want their children going to school and having a morning lesson plan that runs from maths, to geography straight through to weapons training.”
You make it sound like its going to be a compulsory activity. Way to sensationalise Mr shoebridge!
@Poodle I think your hoplophobia got in the way of reading what you refer to in your reply to Chris, DHV and Jason. Not normal would be a flying green jelly monster. Using your interpretaion Id say veganism isnt normal but who am I to tell someone what to eat. Please show me where all the legal firearms owners are that are out shooting people? Did you know more people die from playing squash than there are injuries in firearms incidents? That includes the criminals and their smuggled firearms too.
Just wondering too Poodle, If you have any facts you could use in your arguments or is it just that you have soo much emotion that that is all you can bring to a debate on firearms? Just emotion would seem a shallow and even irrational way to judge a tool used in a normal sporting activity. You do know alot of people are murdered with hammers dont you? Should we really be teaching school aged kids to use them?
A number of private schools in Sydney as well as regional NSW have been competing in the sport of rifle shooting since at least 1892.
The girls schools compete on an equal footing. They learn discipline and safety.
In fact the sport is much safer than any contact sport, and it is included in the Duke of Edinburgh Award.
These students go on to represent our country in the Commonwealth and Olympic Games.
On a club level there are seniors well into their 90’s that continue to compete successfully.
It is an expensive sport but why restrict it to only a few well off?
So, Poodle, where do we start?
What are your thoughts on the way TV stations continue to serve up shows which portray the inappropriate use of firearms as entertainment?
Would that be far more likely to “normalise” guns amongst school age children?
Dare I mention video games?
Other items of olympic sporting equipment such as javelin, discus and shot put also had their origions as items of war, but most thinking people are able to see how they have evolved. I dont hear you objecting to these being in regular use at school spoting carnivals.
With due respect poodle you are incorrect. Guns are specifically manufactured and designed to do one thing and one thing only and that is launch a projectile. If you choose to use false claims to justify your views then that is fine but you need to accept that being fearful of guns is a phobia which is not normal. I find target shooting very normal and enjoyable. Drug education in schools does not create drug addicts, Sex education does not cause underage pregnancies.
By your argument Jason – education about guns in schools shouldn’t actually involve guns. Unless of course your drug and sex-ed lessons involved getting taking drugs and having sex.
I shot at the Malabar .22 and smallbore range when I was in year 11 and 12. I didn’t continue with the sport after I finished year 12, but enjoyed those afternoons each week and it was challenging especially on a windy afternoon. Incidently, the experience didn’t turn me into a raving lunatic, nor any of my classmates for that matter. I’m not sure what research was conducted to conclude above that not many parents wanted to see this as a school sport, but it contradicts directly with my own experiences. Shoebridge – have you actually been to a range and had a go for yourself? There seems to be a lot of campaigns and bills listed on this website relating to human rights, yet you openly go out of your way to do your best to shutdown a past time / sport which is enjoyed by a broad spectrum of people from all walks of life. To me, the campaigns discussed on this website targeting shooting would be infringing upon their human rights.
@TD – Guns are not a basic human right. You’re thinking of the United States constitution.
When certain politicians want to ban a sport and recreational activity that almost 1million people in Australia enjoy, it certainly is infringing on human rights.
A number of private schools in Sydney as well as regional NSW have been competing in the sport of rifle shooting since at least 1892.
Rifle Shooting is the oldest GPS sport.
The girls schools compete on an equal footing. They learn discipline and safety. In fact the sport is much safer than any contact sport, and it is included in the Duke Of Edinburgh Award.
These students go on to represent our country in the Commonwealth & Olympic Games.On a club level there are Seniors well into their 90′s that continue to compete successfully. It is an expensive sport but why restrict it to only a few well off?
Mark – As Anthony has put it so well, simply prohibiting a past time enjoyed by so many by the narrowmindedness and selfishness of so few, infringes upon human rights. The US constitution and their gun laws are completely irrelevant, and I make no such mention of it (you do). Human rights in Australia are covered by our constitution, common law and legislation – acts passed by the Commonwealth Parliament or State or Territory Parliaments.
David,
The stats show there are more licensed shooters and more legal guns in Australia now than when JWH attempted to demonise them both in ’96.
The nightly news tells that there are also more illegal guns in use than before ’96, suggesting the buy back was an abject failure in terms of policy outcomes, but that is another story.
So, can I suggest you have this back to front? You paint TSFP as a minor fringe group wielding disproportionate power and seeking to change what is normal, when perhaps it is a previously under represented sector of Australian society which is now enjoying the benefits of better representation in a democratic society, and undoing previous wrongs? I find it ironic that the actions of JWH in ‘96 have lead to this being possible. The pendulum is definitely swinging back to where it started from.
not liking guns is a phobia now?
whatever you redneck yokels.
Good on you! I don’t know anyone that actually thinks “guns are normal” and I don’t think you have a phobia because you disagree with having more access to shooting as a sport in schools. Strict gun control makes sense. Less control, more access to guns, any attempt to normalise gun use or ownership, does not make sense and does not make for a safer society.
“Guns are normal everywhere in Australia” ??? !!!
Some of the above comments are really disturbing, I also wonder why these people are on a Greens page? Probably just pro-gun lobby moles trying to stir up trouble. Well, speak your piece but you do sound rather silly.
I agree with you Poodle, guns were designed for one thing – how they may be used will differ in different circumstances, but the fact remains they are deadly weapons designed to kill. Full stop.
Weak (and yes you are right, really quite ridiculous!) attempts at justification like it’s a great sport, an object to fire a projectile, more people die from playing squash etc etc blather blather blather … well listen to them, it’s hilarious if it wasn’t so serious.
Good on you David for pushing this issue, please continue to be a sane and rational and compassionate voice for the majority of normal Australians.
A mole! More paranoia. I live in the electorate of Vaucluse in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney where my children attend a private school and are able to choose the noble sport of Marksmanship. I would not want a person such as David Shoebridge to represent me. We are not rednecks or yokels, we are educated doctors, lawers etc., as was Sir Roden Cutler NSW Governor who was a GPS Cup Champion, amongst other prominant Australians.
Ellis, you are clearly another example of a person writing a comment on a subject you know nothing about. I am no a ‘pro gun lobby mole’. I am a recreational hunter, target shooter, father, husband and a bunch of other things you would find very ‘normal’ as well as a Police Officer and partner to a serving member of The Australian Army
Australia has a very proud tradition of ‘normal’ people using firearms for 1. protecting YOUR country & rights
2. putting food on the table for YOU
3. controlling pest animals that damage our environment & farms YOU get your food from
4. protection of YOUR civil liberties by police and security
The way I see it, YOU owe responsible shooters a very big thank you.
You personally don’t like shooting so ban it for every one else.
What kind of attitude is that?
My family and I know how to shoot, care for and safely store and operate guns,. They have no fear or mystery whatsoever. The only thing to be afraid of are want-to-be Stalinists who want to ban anything and everything they don’t personally have interest in. sorry but your ‘utopian society’ is far more frightening than any firearm.
Nice. As soon as any logic is brought to bare, the anti gun commets turn to insults.
Admit it, snide inuendo and lopsided “facts” are the only language you know.
My point is this. What gives such a small minority the right to ban anything. You do not represent the wishes of the majority and your attacks on our way of life are baseless in regard to evidence to back up your claims.
The fact is EVERYWHERE guns are banned crime rises. And it happens most in the Cities, so maybe you could learn a thing or two from “yokels” as you like to term us.
Pathetic realy. But what can you expect from idiots.
The P.M’s all seem to like getting thier piccys taken with our gold medal shooters, why attack a valid sport?
Actually Ellis, target shooting is a great sport. Technically demanding and challenging at all levels, not just the elite. Just because you don’t happen to agree doesn’t mean that hundreds of thousands of fellow law-abiding Australians should relinquish their preferred sporting activity. In my club there are doctors, chiropractors, business professionals, school teachers, librarians, artists, pensioners. The only sport where men, women, juniors and the physically disabled can compete on an equal footing.
Seems the usual Green response. “If we dont agree it must be banned”. I wonder why there aren’t more of them on here cheering David on? Apathy? Dead issue? Or maybe people are just sick of the mock hysteria and hand wringing that is substituted for facts in every Green issue.
Firearms are a part of Australian culture. Educating people about their use and safe handling is a positive step. Nobody is forcing school kids to use them but they shouldnt be prevented from participating in the sport if they want to.
There are clearly a large number of greens who have no idea about firearms. PLEASE go to your local range and see what it is all about before making judgement. You will be very surprised. Every shooter I know, civilian, Police and military has a deep respect for their recreation or profession involving firearms.
Mark my argument was that learning to shoot will no more turn you into a criminal than learning about sex or drugs will make you pregnant or a drug addict.
There are two sides to learning, theory and practicle but it is illegal to have sex with under aged children or give them drugs just ask the honourable Milton Orkopoulos.
I have a hard time understanding why the greens would support lowering the age of consent so politicians can legally have anal intercourse with 16 year old boys but then be outraged by giving the same aged boys the opportunity to participate in target shooting. Only one of these activities is harmful to children.
Well if I can be called homophobic, then I guess it must be !! Care to explain how it can be otherwise??
Not normal? See this http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/lc/qalc.nsf/962613d55d0cee2aca257146008027f7/904bc2506bd9a15bca2576240032e959?OpenDocument
In NSW alone, 2677 per month get their firearms license renewed. In NSW licenses last for 5 years so thats a lot of people.
I dont comment on homosexuality or drugs because I have never personally tried them, but I accept that others are into it.
Why is it that people who have never had anything to do with firearms (apart from the nightly news and the movies) feel qualified to offer an opionion?
Remember, the fox or cat I shoot today saves all the cute little natives you will go GaGa over tomorrow.
Pro gun lobby? i assume you mean an organised group of people under the flag of one organisation?
Well, Speaking for my self, im a wardsman at a big hospital and a hunter and personally wont stand for my sport/hobby to be taken from me. Most of us shooters are sick to death of being labelled red necks and dangerous and made to feel like criminals and so, will take the time to fight for our right to continue our chosen past time. I come to this page off my own back, without the prompting or call from anyone. I wish we did have a group or body fighting for us and rallying us together to make an impact in numbers but alas, we dont.
We come from such different demographics, political beliefs and socioeconomic situations and our only link is shooting, that doesnt seem to be enough to unite us into an organised body. So, we do it as individuals.
As for why am I on a greens site? I used to vote green untill I woke up and saw they just arent out there trying to do the best thing for the environment. there is alot more to the greens agenda that threatens our Aussie way of life. I wanted to see an end to water wastage, poor farming techniques, reduction of all polutions and a cleaning up of our natural environments. if only they had stuck to this and left the rest of politics to the majors.
@poodle, Youve sunk to a new low with your classist insults. Its what anti gun types seem to be good at. comments like “its disturbing” and “red neck yokels” are the catch cry for anti gun and anti hunting types. No facts or argumnet other than emotion. And you wonder I can only see you all as hoplophobes? 🙂
David, can you please elaborate upon these alternative “civilised methods of feral animal control” that you hint at in your article pushing for the close of the game council for the reason that the organisation promotes cruelty to animals (please also state where the game council publises that it is pro-animal cruelty) . I am vehemently opposed to the widespread aerial bombing of 1080 which is so common in NZ because it also indiscriminately targets both native species and livestock alike. I am all for alternative methods of vermin control but am yet to see one that actually works in practice (aside from the time tested and proven practice of lead poisoning).
Despite the all the rhetoric on this website, I still have not seen one economically viable and practical solution to your perceived issues with vermin contol, logging and policing / law enforcement. Furthermore your policies in regards to encouraging drink driving crime and drug abuse would would ultimately take us back to the dark ages with the whole host of social problems these vices create. [Edited removal – of offensive unrelated material] The very few supporters you have writing on this blog have already displayed how radical and marginalised your voting base really is, and I would say that now that the major parties are adopting ‘greener’ policies – the greens will soon see themselves become about as relevant as the democrats founds themselves to be a few years back.
As a primary producer with substantial land holdings which produce crops such as vegetables which vegan greenies need in order to stay alive i’d like to have a say about this topic.
My farm is in an area which is infested with many non-native animals [EDITED REMOVAL] . Animals such as wild pigs, deer, rabbits, hares and foxes are in plague proportions. The farm is too big for me to hunt these animals on my own so I need to invite SSAA members to keep the vermin under control. The hunters I invite are sharp shooters and are able to consistently kill the vermin with head and neck shots which instantly kill the animals in the most humane way possible.
If the greens wish to stamp out guns, my farm vegetable crops will be eaten by vermin and this will result in a shortage of vegetables for the vegan greens.
There are 2 solutions 2 this debate:
1) don’t make gun laws any tighter than they already are so my vegetable crops (and those of other Australian farmers) can continue feeding vegans and mainstream society alike
2) make gun laws so tight that vegetable crops get destroyed by vermin, which means that there are only enough vegetables for normal people. Then greens/vegans can move to another country where vegetables are in greater abundance.
Either way doesn’t worry me. If I can’t continue making a living from vegetable farming I’ll subdivides my lands, develop it and sell it off at a much bigger profit. Unfortunately most farmers don’t have appropriately located farms which can be developed into residential housing. These farms will suffer the most from draconian gun laws.
Caspian-Lands – there is no plan to change the current laws on primary producers access to firearms.
This post was moderated because it appeared to be derogatory of a certain ethnic group.
David, I think you missed his point. large blocks and being occupied with general farm duties leaves farmers like caspian-lands with no time to perform all the feral animal control and so he, and others in his position call on assistance from SSAA members and other recreational hunters. Proffesional shooters cost money. And where do pro shooters come from? How do they start? how do they become proficient? without clubs with many non proffesional members, where do they learn all the skills that go with load developments and equipment?
Anyone can pick up a gun and pull the trigger but skill with the firearm comes with practice and coaching from peers. The science of ballistics and load development come from sharing information and experience amongst the huge knowledge and testing base from the wider shooting community.
David, I suggest you at least buy a years subscrition to an Australian hunting or shooting magazine and read through and learn about all the facets of the shooting sports so you can have a more informed comment and opinion on firearms issues. Why not go and try shooting at a local range? Get out and meet farmers, walk national parks and state forests and see for yourself the damage from ferals and how safe shooting and hunting/hunters actually are. youll be surprised how many non red neck types make up shooters.
It has been good to see this debate on shooting on this page. I have allowed open discussion including from the pro-shooters groups on this page. There is a lot of passion from people who feel that gun ownership is a right, not a privilege and that anyone speaking up for the broader safety of the community must be speaking for a marginal group.
Often a well-organised and motivated minority can seek to be heard above the majority who have a less pointed, but more compelling, interest in delivering for the broader public good. This is not limited to one side or the other of politics, but it is becoming an increasingly strident tool of the right here in Australia from the carbon tax ‘debate’ to shooting and refugees.
Thanks all for contributing.